How Your People Identify Matters. Here's How To Find Out
People need to learn about the prevalence of a group before they care about them.
And here’s the thing: Queer people exist everywhere. You may not realize that because there is often a lack of safety for us to be forthcoming about who we are, including not being asked.
But if we’re not counted, then we don’t count.
Plus, the whole “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” thing is soooo 1990s.
So if you want to increase inclusion at your organization, it’s essential to have an appropriate way to ask about LGBTQ+ identities when collecting demographic info.
On this ep, I break down:
Reasons companies often omit LGBTQ+ identities when asking demographic info
How LGBTQ+ people are relevant to all organizations, even if you think we aren’t for yours
Wrong ways that people sometimes ask someone if they’re LGBTQ+, and ways to do it better
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Show Notes:
(Intro)
Welcome to the Be Proud With Eric podcast, the place for all things Queer empowerment. I'm your host, Eric Sullivan, he/him pronouns. I'm a proud gay person, licensed therapist and DEI consultant. My mission is to empower members of the LGBTQ+ community and teach people to be better allies. I love connecting with people and I'm so glad you're here.
Let's do this.
(Episode 6 starts)
Today, I'll be talking about the importance of data collection. It's really important to have an active process for tracking the number of staff and clients that identify as LGBTQ+. I see this being omitted by so many companies all the time, and it's very disheartening as a member of this community.
First of all, on a fundamental level, if we're not counted, then we don't count. There's no representation and representation is so important for marginalized groups to get equal rights, equal access and societal shifts and acceptance in large part, come through that representation, that visibility, it leads people who have never before had to have
knowledge or understanding of a certain marginalized group to gain that knowledge, to learn what it's like, that tends to lead to greater acceptance. People tend to care more once they've seen the way that people who do have lived experiences within those groups, you know, how it touches their life.
Versus if it's something they've never had to think about before, because they don't personally experience.
There's this social, psychological notion that often people want to believe in the prevalence of a population before that group matters to them. So through collecting that data and showing. People the world, your company, your demographic, Hey, here's how many people we serve that are members of the Queer community that tends to lead people to be like, "oh wow.
We had no idea. Okay. Let's put some attention there." That representation also has major implications for things such as research, funding, legal protection. And here's the tricky thing about research and funding for research. There's so much limited data out there about experiences for Queer people, because there's not a lot of funding being given to that research.
One of the very important ways to get funding to do research is to show a group of people data, and to show them, here are the numbers, right? This is a thing this matters. This is actually real. So without those numbers, it's hard to get funding and part to get approval for research, but also, how do you get those numbers?
You need that those numbers through research and through data collection. So it's a bit of a vicious cycle there. So how can you work against that? Help amplify that representation by collecting information on the number of people that identify within the Queer community. Often, what I find in the work that I do is that companies tend to think that the LGBTQ+ community isn't something that directly pertains to them and the work that they do.
Let me tell you a story here about something. One of the times this played out for me when I was interviewing for a job position, this was a school counselor position. And as I've talked about previously on the show, I had already done that job before I had already worked as a school counselor. And so I was totally qualified.
I had the experience and story for another day. I ended up getting laid off the company, got closed down and I was in, you know, a cohort, fellow school counselors who were all like fresh out of grad school. Most of us were like in our mid twenties and we came back from winter break and we were supposed to have the first day of school the next day.
It was a Sunday and we all got a text: "Company's closed and no need to go to your schools tomorrow." So for anyone out there who's ever been laid off like that. It's disheartening, it's demoralizing, but you know, I just went right back out there and was like, let me get another job. Oh, here's a school counselor job I've been doing that, you know, I'm qualified for that.
Let me apply. So I applied, I got the interview I'm interviewing for the job and my would have been supervisor was, uh, it was a double interview. One of the supervisors was asking me some questions and here's the thing, my resume was also pretty Queer at the time. I highlighted on there, I'm a recent graduate with a master's in LGBTQ+ psychology.
I had worked at the Los Angeles LGBT center, the world's largest provider of resources to Queer people. I had volunteered at several LGBTQ+ organizations, all of this was all on my resume. Right. Because one, it was just the work that I had been doing. And also it was work that mattered to me. So.
So the person interviewing me said, "So, you know, I see you have a lot of experiences working with the LGBT community. Tell me about that." Which, by the way, side note, LGBT was the most widely used term at the time, kind of in, by Queer organizations and in Queer culture. So that was actually appropriate.
Right. I was kind of like, okay, cool. She knows that term. I mean, there was 70,000 times on my resume, but she said it properly. She said it with confidence, that part felt good. So while LGBTQ+ used to be the more widely used term it's outdated now it's now LGBTQ+. I cover this in full detail on episode two, if you want to learn more about that.
But so anyway, so going back to she's like, "Yeah, you have a lot of experience working with the LGBT community. Tell me about it." And it seemed innocent enough. Like it seemed inviting. And so I was like, "Oh, Yes, I'm a community member. It's certainly a passion of mine. I've really loved. I moved out here for this.
I've gotten to do so much amazing work. It's been so incredible. I love it. And here's the thing. I am a recent graduate. I'm a pre-licensed therapist. I'm getting my hours. And so. That's going to take me some time and it's so awesome in the interim. There's so many populations that I get to work with while I'm getting my hours."
Right. Because I wanted to make it a point to be like, yes, it's my passion, but it's not what I have to be doing. And I'm still happy to do this job right now. And she was like, "Hmm." And already in my head, I was like, Oh, shoot to Queer for her. She said, "You know, my worry is that I'm not sure if you would be fulfilled in this role because you wouldn't get to do the work that you're clearly passionate about.
And this organization doesn't work with LGBT youth. That's not what we do here." And I was like okie dokey. Here we go. So it was like, "You know, as I as I mentioned yes, while this work isn't specific to what my passion is, you know, I kind of refreshed on why that was not going to be a problem and, you know, still want to work lots of populations getting my hours.
It's great to get all different kinds of experience," you know, lottie dottie dah. And then I said, "and in regards to you saying that you don't work with LGBT youth, what do you mean?". And she was like, "Well, you know, this is a, um, this would be a school based position. So you'd be working in schools with high school aged youth, but like general youth, not anything LGBT specific.
So like, since we don't work with those clients, you wouldn't get to do the work that you've enjoyed doing." And I was like, "Hmm. What's your system for tracking the youth that you serve and how they identify?" And she was like, "What do you mean?" And I was like, was like, "Well, surely your intake questionnaire asks the youth what their sexual orientation and gender identity are?"
"Well, um, no, actually it doesn't, you know, that's not on there. And so we actually, we don't have a system to track that information." And I was like, diplomatically as I could. I was kind of like, "Hmm, well then that's not really something you can speak to then whether or not you serve LGBT youth." And at this point I was sorta like, you know what, like, I mean, it wasn't like rude about it, but I was like, let me give her some education because
I did not appreciate that comment. You know, "We don't serve those youth here." So I was like, "And respectfully, whether you're aware of it or not Queer people exist, we exist everywhere. So it would be naive to think that some of the youth that you serve aren't members of the community, especially since LGBTQ+ people experience increased mental health struggles as a result of systemic oppression."
And she was like, you know, just kinda like looking at me, like, did this punk really just say that to me,
but she also couldn't argue it. I had a point there, you know what I mean? Like, so first of all, even if it was just a general youth population, a good percentage of those youth are LGBT. If we're talking about offering mental health services and increase numbers, That of those youth, that number is going to be conflated because we're overrepresented in mental health systems again, because:
do we have increased anxiety, depression struggle with relationships, substance abuse? Yes. Not because of our identities. It's not an inherent thing of being an LGBTQ+ person. It's because the world makes it difficult for us to be ourselves and for us to be accepted for that. And that directly leads to increase mental health struggles.
Anyway, shocker. I did not get the job. I was like, this woman is not feeling me and this just, this doesn't feel right. I'm not getting the, the feels here and I probably sealed the deal, by you know, my response to the questions, but here's the thing. It was actually serendipitous in that soon after that. So I didn't hear back from them.
I kept the job search going. I then landed a Queer specific job that in large part contributed to the consulting work that I now do today. So, you know, Hey to that woman out there, it's all good. But hopefully she learned something in that moment. The story also, it illustrates the point that again, uh, one non-Queer people by default think that LGBTQ+ people aren't relevant to their company and the work that their company does because it's not their lived experience and it's not on their radar.
It's particularly not on their radar if they're not very savvy to diversity, equity and inclusion. Again, count us so that we count. If you count us and you can show people the numbers of Queer people that exist, hopefully that will lead to a shift in then making efforts to serve those populations. So if your company does the type of work that like has an assessor, it has like clients that you serve, whether that's like in healthcare or otherwise, if there's any type of intake for.
That asks demographic information that should include asking people what their sexual orientation and what their gender identity are. And if you're like talking to them in conversation, what their pronouns are as well, or in conversation slash like as part of that onboarding assessment, whatever that is, if you're going to be referring to them in any type of way, what their pronouns are.
So over the years, while training as a therapist, And working toward my licensure. I worked for a lot of different agencies that did not have that on their forms. So I would always make it a point to be like, Hey, um, here's something I have specialized training in. Let me help you out here. Your intake needs to have these things on it in order to be inclusive to the Queer community.
And it's important to like, know that information for a mental health provider. or a healthcare provider who's going to be working with these people. We need to know who they are. We need to know what their identities are. Generally or the response that I would get was like, "oh wow. We never realized that before.
Thank you so much for sharing that. We will definitely put some attention to making that happen." And then like, would it happen? No, it was of- or not no, like never, but it's not like they just like rolled out a new form. There's so much red tape to go through. Company politics and all of that. So I would often get sort of like the placating, like, "oh, wow.
Yeah, we totally look into that." And then cut to like months later and months later, it's still the same. So what you can do in that situation is you can still ask those questions as the assessor and write that information in. That's what I would do. And I would also like encourage my colleagues to do that as well.
And the more people that did and the more that I would do it eventually that would contribute most of the time to those agencies updating that form. So, you know, why is that so important? You want to start off on the right foot with a new person that you're serving as a consumer, whether or not a business is Queer inclusive, it matters.
It matters to us. And for me, it's a factor for sure in where I spend my money, and that starts with being proactive about someone asking that information from me and, or demonstrating to me that they recognize that our community exists and make efforts to serve as appropriately. Because if you don't ask, if you, as the company are not being proactive, it is not an easy thing for Queer people to offer up for you.
The world has asked us in so many different ways to not offer up that information freely, which is why when we do, when we are open about who we are, that can feel so good to do. But it's also a very difficult thing to do because the world doesn't make it an easy place to share that information. And so that also gives implications of people being closeted or another way of saying like hiding parts of their identity and, and that they are members of the Queer community, because they don't feel safe to share that information when we are able to do that.
And we're able to share who we are. We often can get a lot of support from people in our lives, including loved ones, including colleagues, including places that we work. However, one, that's not always the case that doesn't always happen. And even when it does happen, there's still a lot that we contend with just walking the world every day as a community member.
And even when the response isn't overtly negative, we're often stereotyped and sensationalized all the time. All the, like this plays out all the time.
(Break)
Hey everyone. Eric here with a question for you. What's your company's inclusion score? If you're like. Umm, I don't know. How do I measure that? Don't worry. I've got you. I've created a free checklist of the 10 essentials your organization needs to celebrate the LGBTQ+ community. It only takes a few minutes to discover your score and you'll get practical ways to make it higher.
Hashtag winning! To level up your diversity, equity, and inclusion, head over to beproudwitheric.com/inclusionchecklist.
(Episode resumes)
One example of this happening was a time that I had moved. And so I needed to find a new primary care doctor. And I found one that was nearby to my house and I made an appointment. And you know, when you go to like a new healthcare appointment with a new provider, the first thing you do is like you fill out all that paperwork.
And part of that paperwork is asking demographic information about yourself. And you know, of course I noticed, oh, this form is not asking anything about my sexual orientation or gender identity. And now sure. Like I could have written in the margins, like BTW I'm gay. But like, if I'm not prompted to share that information, it's bigger than that.
I wanted them to know that. Right. I wanted my primary care doctor to know that I'm a gay person because that has implications on my health care. But since they're not asking me, I didn't feel safe to do it. And not only that I'm like, Ugh, they don't even know why it's important to ask that information.
And that was also problematic for. So, you know, I was just like, alright, whatever, we'll, we'll kind of see how this plays out. Maybe my doctor will ask me, like, once I'm in the room, we'll see. But for now I'm just not, you know, I'm not going to sort of like find my own way to share that information. So, you know, um, Sullivan.
Um, you know, before I met with the doctor, you go and you get like your height and your weight and all that good stuff. Um, one of the medical staff who was assisting me with those things was like, um, oh, I had just come from work. And so I was carrying a messenger bag, which is like, for anyone who doesn't know.
It's kind of like a briefcase and it has a shoulder strap and, you know, I always carried one around at places that I worked. And so anyway, one of the staff was like, I love your bag. And I was like, thank you. And then she was like, I could see her, like I could see the thought bubble forming, like she was wanting to ask something else.
And she was like, are you... nevermind, nevermind. And like, I knew where it was going. I was like, okay, she's just about to ask me if I'm gay or not. All right. And then she said, do you have a boyfriend? And I was like, no, but I do date men. And like, first of all, part of me felt that urge to utilize humor in that moment, kind of like as a defense.
Um, and just to like smooth it over because honestly I wasn't, I was irritated, you know, I was like, did. That's not the way, like, that's not the way to ask me, you know, how I identify. It's not appropriate. Especially like, as a healthcare provider, I'm a new patient of theirs. Like, even though I was getting the impression that like, she thought it was cool, right.
Again, she was like, love your bag. Um, it's still not the way. So, like, I felt that urge to be like, no, I don't have a boyfriend, but I do date men. Do you know any eligible bachelors out there? Wink, wink. So like, we could all have a laugh together, but like one I wasn't in the mood to, and I was like, I don't need to smooth this over, you know, so I wasn't super rude, but I just very sort of like currently said no, but I do date men, you know, and she followed it up with something like.
My cousin is gay. Like, you know, she was trying to like, let me know that she was an ally, you know, and that she actually, like, it seems like she thought it was cool that I was gay, but also like, it was kind of salt in the wound. Like I was already kind of disappointing. And upset that, that information wasn't asked of me by this health care agency.
So then like, to be like sensationalized and like stereotyped like that because I was carrying a messenger bag. Like I was this like cool stylish gay guy. Right. And so it was like, it, it just didn't feel good to me. Like, yes, I'm out in pro. But I don't want to be stereotyped. And I don't want people to like, make assumptions about who I am because of my style.
Like that also has bigger implications of stereotyping gay men. And I don't want to be turned into a novelty for somebody else also, like, you know, what, if I wasn't gay, right? What if she made an assumption? And when, if she assumed raw. Or what if I was, but I wasn't out about that. Or I wasn't comfortable sharing that in this like brand new setting that I was at and bringing health care setting where I don't know how these people are going to treat me for that.
And I'm not getting signals that it's a safe place this year that I did though, because I wasn't asked in sort of a culturally competent way. So pretty went out there in a professional setting that directly serves people. It's very important to ask them in a professional way. Best practice to do that is if you're asking other demographic information of them include asking them what their sexual orientation, gender identity and gender pronouns are, if you'll be interacting with them.
So this is not only for the people you serve. This is also important to have a system in place to know the identities of your employees. Now I can hear the gasps now, especially from the people that work in HR, like, oh no, we can't ask people that. No, no, that's a big, no, no. We're not allowed to ask people like if they're gay or not.
Now I've heard that so many times and I get where it's coming from. So, no, of course not like you, you're not going to ask that of anyone like during an interview, but your organization should have some kind of system in place for knowing who works for them because. Representation matters. And it's important to know the needs of your staff.
So remember, we're trying to create and maintain safety here. So there are right and wrong ways to go about collecting this information. Don't worry. I've got you here. I can walk you through exactly how to get that information and what to do with it. Once you have it. You want this to be confidential. So like for example, like an employee survey about their experiences, it could be part of that.
Or it could be its own separate survey, but like, if you're just wanting to know general numbers for the people that you serve and, or the people that you work for, let it be confidential. We're still catching up to the world, letting it be a safe place for us to share how we identify. So a lot of people would not be comfortable tying their identifying information, such as their name with how they identify some wood.
Right. Um, and that's cool. And that can be empowering too, but if we want to get accurate numbers, let it be confidential. That way people are more likely to self identify and you can. More accurate numbers there. And you know, also note that even with confidentiality people don't always trust that they don't always know that even if we just think about those general company surveys, where.
You know, submit this and we're not asking for your name. We're not asking for your email. It's not tied in with you at all. Like, what are your experiences here? A lot of times people are like, I don't trust that. Like, I don't know how technology and the internet works. Like, are they still tracking us somehow?
And like, I don't want to say like disparaging things about this place that I work. And it happened come back, you know, to, to get me into trouble. So like, even when it's confidential, Have the understanding that those numbers are going to be lower than what they actually are now for people out there who are like, well, our services or products aren't geared toward the Queer community and, or we don't want to niche to that demographic.
One reminder we exist, you know, we exist, whether you recognize it or not. Um, and with the greater representation and visibility, that's come in recent years, it's becoming more and more safe to let people know who we are to. You probably don't know whether or not your company, what your company has to offer appeals to the Queer community.
Like, so even if you don't think that it does, it might, and from a business perspective, if it does, if you know, better ways to serve that community, um, not only can you, like, you know, do right by the people that access your services, you can also increase revenue through doing so. And you're not just going to ask about identities and that's that.
No, it's more than that. It's more than just demographic information and just like numbers on paper. You're also going to want to collect data from the LGBTQ+ identified employees or consumers that you serve about their needs, concerns, and experiences pertaining to the company. The work that they do for your company, the services that they go to your company, for the products that they buy from you, you're going to want to know all of that.
That is a wealth of information like for you to, again, one better serve those people and to increase the business that you do and create customers that are happy and staff that are happy. And like, we all know if people are more happy, they're doing a better job. They're doing a better job if they work for you and they're going to be using your services more
if they are consumer of yours.
Here's another way to use this information. Once you get that data, what to do with it, for the people that you serve that are Queer identified, you can then provide them with more resources. You can use that feedback that they give you and to improve your company culture. What I have seen so many times is that once there is a safe way to track this information and companies are learning, oh, wow.
We actually do serve a lot more Queer people than we realized, or there's a lot more Queer people that work here than we realized. Company leadership is sometimes surprised to learn that information. And I have seen this firsthand. Companies getting that data and then realizing how many LGBTQ+ people they serve.
And then they put more energy into increasing their inclusion efforts, you know, because they're like, oh wow. We didn't realize this. Now that we do let's do better. And to be on the other end of that, to see that happen. It's so validating for me, it feels so good. Right. It's like, thank you. Yes, we do exist.
And we have unique experiences navigating this world and this company. So thank you so much for recognizing that, that can feel so good. Especially after like so many experiences of people being like you don't exist or be quiet if you exist. We're not going to recognize you. If you exist. If you have a unique needs, we don't know.
We don't care. Don't tell us. So to how people do the opposite is really important. And it's great for everyone. It's good for the business. It's good for the consumers. It's good for the people that work there win-win win. So takeaway here, you need to have an active way to track the number of staff and clients that you serve, who identify as LGBTQ+ and be tracking their experiences within the company.
So if learning all of this information today, has you more on board with this idea, and you're like, yes, we want to do this. Hey, remember, it's also important to do it. Right. So if you want some guidance in doing so, I've got you reach out to me at let's talk.
And also keep in mind, if you don't have those things in place, no judgment for me, you know, like, yes. I know like I'm sitting here today talking about how it can be very hurtful and it can be very, you know, disappointing when I see that companies don't have this, I don't want that to be a barrier in people trying to do it better.
Right. I don't want people to be worried that like, oh gosh, what's, what's he going to think if we don't have this in place at our company or what if we're doing it, but we're doing it wrong. That's okay. You know, like, come as you are. I don't expect anyone to be doing this right. When they don't know how to, that's why I'm here.
Like, I want to help people to be like, this is why it's important. This is how you do it. Let me hold your hand through the process so that you do it right. Why because I'm trying to elevate my community here. And I know that the more companies that do this, the better it is for the greater community, the better it is for representation, for visibility, for equal rights, for inclusion.
So don't worry if you don't have this in place, I don't expect you to, but I will help you get there.
(Outro)
Thank you so much for hanging out with me today. If you're feeling inspired by today's ep help your boy out by subscribing to the show and leaving a review. To learn more about how I can guide you through your Queer glow up head over to beproudwitheric.Com and remember, always be proud of who you are.
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